Thursday, June 1, 2017

Update on Vance DNA Group 8

Another in our continuing updates on the Vance DNA groups; this one is about Vance DNA Group 8.

If you remember this group it includes the US descendants of Thomas James Vance b.1795 of Newton Co, Mississippi and James Alexander Vance who d. 1821 in South Carolina.  The group also includes two lines still remaining in Ireland, and may have connections to several of the Vances mentioned by William Balbirnie in his book on the Vances from 1860.  All the background on the group is available in Adam Bradford's excellent summary indexed under the DNA pages of this site or at http://www.vancegenealogy.com/Group%208%20Overview.pdf.

The male line origins of this group have been found to belong to the Y-DNA haplogroup U152, which is a SNP that originated about 4400 years ago (using the ageing estimates by YFull).  Recent research on ancient burials has located several U152 men among ancient Bell Beaker groups and it has been tentatively linked with the spread of the Hallstadt and La Tene cultures although it was almost certainly not the only major SNP spread by those migrations.

U152 and its subgroup, L2, have been found at low frequencies today throughout the British Isles but most frequent in eastern and southern England, as well as around Durham, Lancastershire and southern Cumbria, and Midlothian and Berwickshire in Scotland.

Famous other lines of the L2 subgroup may have included George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, but the subgroup is also over 4000 years old so it has a wide spread of descendants today.

Vance Group 8 sits below L2 on a branch of SNPs under L2 with a terminal SNP called BY3507 as shown in the picture below.  Ages on this picture were taken again from YFull for consistency.


While the BY3507 branch has not been dated, a lot of research has gone into mapping its SNPs in detail.  That picture (taken from Alex Williamson's Big Tree) looks like this:


Adam Bradford's original report on Group 8 included a possible connection with the Hay tester shown, but the SNP results are clear that the connection is back somewhere near 1400-1650AD when the Vance line broke off and other surnames - Craig, Hay, and Robertson, continued along separate lines.  Based on the known geographic distribution of these lines it is likely that the common ancestor already lived in the British Isles, but where exactly is not known.

DNA testing today includes both SNP and STR testing, and when both are combined with genealogy data we can start to see a picture of how the descendant lines may have evolved.  That picture is shown below (you may need to click on it or download it to enlarge), although I'll stress this is a likely tree only since it is partly based on STR statistics of how the STRs most likely mutated.  Different assumptions would cause the tree to look slightly different.



What does this show?  It shows that the Craigs, Robertsons, etc broke off very early from the Vances and all share the STR value of DYS576=18 .  The Vance line continued and resulted in the lines of James Alexander Vance and Thomas James Vance.  It shows as expected that kits 181224 and 192176 are older branches (these are the Irish branches), but it also suggests that kit 214504 is from an older branch as well.  The other Vance branches share the STR value DYS461=12 and so are likely all descended from a more recent common ancestor, although kit B3040 is not a known descendant of either James Alexander Vance or Thomas James Vance.

So combining all the data is starting to show us how all these lines are related to each other.  Where they all came from originally though is still uncertain but as always in genetic genealogy, more testing and more analysis should help map these lines in increasing detail.

Sunday, April 23, 2017

Update on Vance DNA Group 2

For those of you who follow the DNA testing, the last blog update we had on Vance DNA Group 2 was this post from November 2015.

Vance DNA Group 2, if you recall, comprises a group of about 8-10 immigrant Vance lines from Ireland into the US between about 1730 and 1840, and one line surnamed Whalen who emigrated to Canada.  Notable descendants include Abner Vance of Abingdon, VA and Jim Vance of Hatfield/McCoy feud fame.

At the time of that last post, SNPs Z23507, Z23506, and Z23516 had been identified as major signposts within Group 2, and the descendant picture looked like this:



After another year and a half's worth of further testing, the picture has changed somewhat although the major SNP signposts still remain.  The following chart summaries the group's SNP signposts in yellow, with major STR mutations shown in red boxes along the various descendant lines:

You'll see the major SNPs that mark Group 2's branches marked in bright yellow above - first, SNP L513 which is the "major subclade" formed about 4000 years ago.  Group 2 is identified by SNP Z23507 which occurred about 2800 years later.  Groups 2a and 2b split off from each other about 1300-1400AD (give or take), and Group 2b (the green boxes in the chart) does not have any defining SNPs identified for it yet (there surely ARE some, there just hasn't been enough testing in Group 2b yet to tell). 

Group 2a splits into three major branches.  The branch that split off first includes the lines of Robert Vance of Mifflin Co, VA and George Vance of Bloomsburg, PA (the rose boxes in the chart) - this branch split off about 1500-1650AD.  Then at some point later along the other subbranch, SNP 23516 formed, and after that the line of Matthew Vance of Pittsylvania split off from the others (the purple boxes in the chart).  Matthew's line continued with John Vance of Burke Co, Abner Vance of Abingdon, VA, and Matthew Vance of Greenville's lines.  The other Vance lines continued as shown in blue in the chart. 

The chart also shows (in the red circled area) the generations that lived in Ireland.  How do we know this?  Well, each of the major branches (green, rose, purple, or blue boxes) have immigrants that are known to have either been born or lived in Ireland.  For all those immigrants to have come from the same location, it is reasonable to assume that the major lines continued to live in that location. 

The STRs are marked in the chart above so that male descendants of these Vance lines can look for these STR mutations in their own Y-DNA tests.  Or, if you are a male Vance who has had their Y-DNA tested, you can check your own STRs and see if any of these mutations exist in your own DNA - which would mark you as a descendant of that particular Vance line. 

While the chart above is useful it is really a simplified version of the full "mutation history tree", which you can see in the chart below (click on it to expand it for readability). 


Thursday, February 2, 2017

The first Truly "Melting-Pot" Generations

This is really a US-based point and about general genealogy rather than just the Vances.  But I think the charting methods I describe below are a fun exercise for anyone descended of immigrant families.

If you're descended from Vances in the USA, whether they were of Irish or German origin it still means that line immigrated to the US back in the 1700s or 1800s so you have probably at least 4-6 generations in the US by now.  Possibly your other ancestral lines are equally old.

What happens in the US at least is that in some cases new immigrant families will cluster with others from the same home country and keep their language and original culture alive.  Their children are then raised in an environment very aware of their origin country's language and culture and they may choose to pass those on to their own children.  In other cases a new immigrant family will adopt local language and culture as fast as possible; so although their children may know something of their origins they know very little of their original country, and generally the grandchildren in turn won't have more than maybe a few artifacts and no personal knowledge of that background.  

Of course there are insular groups that stick together longer, but for many of us that means that somewhere between 3 and 5 generations after immigration, descendants will have lost the language, stories, heirlooms, cultural traditions, and other ties to the country of origin.  They MIGHT remember older relatives that still kept those traditions, but those roots fade into general awareness usually without much personal association.

For many of us in the US, somewhere among the approximately three generations alive today are where that point was reached for all of our ancestral lines.  We (or perhaps your parents or your children) are often the first generation with little to no personal experience with the cultural identities of any of our immigrant ancestors.  I'm not saying that that's a good or a bad thing, by the way.  But it IS one reason, for instance, for the continuing popularity of genealogy in the US.

I'll use my own ancestry to demonstrate this effect in a fun chart that you may find useful.

Many genealogists are familiar with showing their ancestry in a pedigree fan chart, with themselves in the middle, their two parents in the next outer ring, and so on out in a circle as many generations as you like.  For instance, here is my known family tree out to 6 generations, which incorporates all my known immigrant lines:



Now draw a pie chart behind the fan chart that forms a "pie piece" from every one of your 6th generation ancestors (or however far back you choose), and color the pie pieces based on their country of origin.  The colors don't matter, just pick a different one for each country.  When I do it, I get this:



(I used faded colors where I was less sure of the origins, but that's not necessary).

The first conclusion, of course, is that I'm a real mutt with many different countries in my ancestry.  My Irish Vance line, by the way, is the small green wedge to the right - I actually have very little Irish ancestry even though it's my surname line!  But the other conclusion is that I have large swaths of certain country ancestry (in my case British (blue) and German (yellow)).  These large swaths show more recent immigrant ancestry.  And in fact I have dim memories of ancestors who felt more connected to their origin countries than I do.

Take a look at similar charts for my parents though:



My colors of course are a combination of theirs.  But see how they're mostly made up of  VERY large swaths of the same colors?  Both my parents (especially my mother, on the right) remember ancestors who still kept cultural traditions from their home countries and even (for her German ancestors) still spoke the language of their country of origin.  By my generation, those experiences didn't exist.

Now in the other direction, look at how much of a patchwork my children are:



While they still have some larger wedges of colors, they're fairly well mixed into a multi-colored swirl.  And in fact in my family lines, my children are the first generation with no personal experience of any ancestors who felt any cultural identity with a country of origin.  For us, some 4-5 generations after all our immigrant ancestors, my children are the first true "melting pot" generation.

The only surprise for me through this exercise is that while the US is always considered a "melting pot", it's only recently that the final effects of that mixing are occurring.  But for those of us with a mixed country ancestry background, it's an interesting look at how far removed (or not) we are from those influences.

If you'd like to repeat this exercise for your own family lines, here's a template you can use to make the same fan chart for yourself.  

Monday, November 21, 2016

One or Two Early Mentions of Irish Vances

Time for another reach into U,K. and Irish history for a look at our (possible) past ancestors!

As many of you are aware, the main goal of William Balbirnie's book in 1860 about Irish Vances was to connect all the Vances then living in Ireland to the Rev. John Vans of Kilmacrenan, whom Balbirnie believed was their common ancestor.  In clinging to that focus, Balbirnie ignored or discounted other Vans/Vance immigrants that he knew about like George Vance who came to Ireland around 1662 (see our post about George Vance).

But researchers since Balbirnie have also uncovered other early Vances (and variants of the name) mentioned in Irish records that William Balbirnie never knew about.  Two from even before the Rev. John Vans, for instance are mentioned in what is known as the Tudor Fiants.

The Fiants were writs issued in early modern Ireland by the chief governor to the Court of Chancery mandating the issue of letters patent - basically government commands regarding appointments, pardons, grants, and the like.  The most complete of these that were indexed date from the time of the Tudor royal dynasty - or basically from the very late 1400s into the first decade of the 1600s.

In these compiled records there are two mentions of very early men who may have been ancestors of today's Vances.  The first in 1576 is a grant of land to a John Vause in what is now Meelick village on the River Shannon in Co. Galway:

From "Reports 11-13 of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records in Ireland / presented to both houses of the Parliament by command of Her Majesty" published in 1879 (Archive.org)

The second from 1586 concerns a Hasting Vanse, gentleman, being granted wardship and lands in Cork in the south of Ireland:

From "The Fourteeth Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records in Ireland / presented to both houses of the Parliament by command of Her Majesty" published in 1879 (Archive.org)

The pity is that these men do not appear in any of the other fragmentary records from Ireland of that period, so if they DID settle permanently in Ireland and leave descendants it was not recorded for posterity (that we yet know of).   Were these men connected with the known Vans lines from Scotland?  We don't know.

What we DO know at least is that the Vaus/Vans/Vance name (or variants of it) were living in Ireland at least a generation or two before the Rev. John Vans.  Since we know he came over from Scotland to start his ministry (with no known or obvious immediate relations in Ireland), it is likely that these or some of the other known early Vance immigrants to Ireland were different families.  And while we don't know yet which ancestor(s) started which of the 4 or 5 known DNA lines of Irish Vances, we certainly know that there were enough separate immigrants to explain how they came about.

Monday, November 23, 2015

DNA Series: Update on Vance Groups 1 and 2, Part 3

This article, the last in our three-part series on DNA research into Vance Groups 1 and 2, focuses on what is known so far about Vance Group 2.  For more about Y-DNA testing in general and Vance DNA Group 1 please read our first and second articles in this series.

Group 2 of the Vance DNA project is made up of descendants of at least 16 known immigrants to the United States and Canada between the early 1700s and mid 1800s.  Several of those immigrants have been traced to Ireland and most of the others were recorded as Irish so efforts to find the original family have centered on Ireland, but no related lines have yet been discovered outside of North America.  All known family lines carry the surname Vance except for one line of descendants who have the last name Whalen, stemming from a Patrick Whealen from the south of Ireland in the early 1800s.

The descendants of Group 2 most notably include all descendants of Matthew Vance of Pittsylvania and the well-known figures Abner Vance of Abingdon, VA and his grandson Jim Vance of Hatfield-McCoy feud fame.

From initial DNA testing we know that Group 2 split fairly early on (say around 1300-1500AD and probably in Ireland) into two Groups usually called Groups 2a and 2b.  For an overview of what was uncovered from initial testing please read Adam Bradford's excellent summary of Group 2 as a whole.   More recently there has been a surge of advanced Y-DNA testing in Group 2 including three "Big Y" tests and targeted SNP ("single nucleotide polymorphism") testing aimed at discovering the SNP blocks and branching that define Groups 2a and 2b.

Group 2 (marked by red circle) shown with all known L513 descendant lines (click to enlarge)
Credit:  Mike Walsh, L513 Yahoo! Group

As noted in our first article in this series, what we now know is that the Group 2 male line split off from the rest of L513 about 3500 years ago and is defined by a VERY long string of about 31 SNP mutations, meaning no other branches have yet been found so only one family line may have survived in one continuous straight line for about the next 2800 years after it broke from L513.  Group 2 is the last few of that 3500-year-old ancient line (among those who have DNA tested so far, at least).

Group 2's long 2800-year descendant line marked by many SNPs (click to enlarge)
Credit:  Alex Williamson, http://www.ytree.net


In more recent times the family tree branches. Group 2 overall's defining SNP is Z23507 and within Group 2, Group 2a is Z23506+ (positive) and Group 2b is Z23506- (negative) (Note:  there probably is a different SNP that Group 2b is positive for, but we will need someone in Group 2b to take a Big Y or Full Genomes test to find that).

So now the narrative picks up some 2800 years after L513 as follows:  some time around 1300-1500AD a man with the last name of Vance (or something close) and carrying the SNP Z23507 was born.  His descendants then split into two lines which became Group 2a and 2b.  Was this man already living in Ireland?  It appears that both his Group 2a and 2b descendants all come from Ireland, so it's very likely he lived there as well.

In any case on the Group 2b side, descendants started arriving in North America from Ireland by the early 1700s.

On the Group 2a side, one man around 1500-1650AD developed the Z23506 mutation.  In this timeframe one Vance line split off and became my Vance line, who emigrated from northern Ireland to the US in 1804.  On the other line a man in Ireland around 1600-1700AD developed the Z23516 mutation.  That man's descendants split IN IRELAND into two lines - one which eventually became Patrick Whealen born around 1816 who then emigrated to Ontario, and the other which led to Matthew Vance of Pittsylvania born around 1720 who shows up in the US and had several descendant lines there.   Given the timeframes involved, it is unlikely that Matthew Vance was the actual man who developed the Z23516 mutation but it IS likely that the two were within a few generations of each other.

The other Group 2a and 2b descendant lines probably fall out as shown on this family tree picture.  But note that until these other descendant lines (the ones shown with lighter descendant lines) are confirmed through SNP testing, this family tree is only representative, not certain.

Group 2a/2b Family Tree with branch-defining SNPs and likely timeframes marked in Green


So where did the Group 2 male line spend the years between 1500 BC and 1300AD?  When did it arrive in Ireland and with what tribe or group?  Did it also come from Scotland, like Group 1 appears to be?  Unfortunately those questions will have to wait until we discover other descendant lines that split off between L513 and Z23507 and hopefully bring their own clues to add new chapters to this evolving story.

Wednesday, October 14, 2015

DNA Series: Update on Vance Groups 1 and 2, Part 2



Hey, so it’s been awhile.  Life and work intruded.  But our genealogy hasn’t changed, and our knowledge especially of our ancient genealogy based on our DNA continues to evolve.  

This article is a continuation of our look at Vance DNA Groups 1 and 2 within what’s called the L513 SNP.   To see more about that SNP and these two groups in general, see our first article on Y-DNA testing.  Here I’ll talk about what we know about Group 1, which is important partly because it includes the lineal heir of the Scottish Lairds of Barnbarroch, and so has been tied to the traditional descent of the Vance surname.  If you need a refresher on that Vance history, read our explanation of A Short History of the Vance Surname.

The coming of “affordable” (meaning less than about $600) exploratory Y-DNA testing in recent years has generated an explosion of Y-DNA testing by people hoping to find out more about their male-line genealogy. Under L21 alone there are more than 14,000 men currently recorded in the DNA project database.   That’s a lot, but it only scratches the surface of the total population of L21 men among the 3.5+ billion men in the world.   The more people test their DNA, the more our knowledge of the origins and spread of our ancient genealogy increases.  

I say “ancient” because what Y-DNA testing has told us so far is mainly about our male-line genealogy back before surnames were first adopted about 1000 years ago.   We are only just starting to see clues to where these male lines have been living from about 1000AD forward.  

So what of Group 1 specifically?  In Y-DNA terms, the Group 1 members of the Vance/Vans/etc surname project are part of what has been known until now as the L193 subgroup of L513.  The L193 subgroup is known as a “superfamily” of various Scottish family names with a strong association with southwest Scotland near Ayrshire and Galloway (although as I said in the first article, its origins are still under fierce debate).  The current structure for this sub-tree of L513 looks like this:



What does this mean?  So adding a few (approximate) timelines to the tree, the story unfolds like this:

Some time about 500 AD (give or take a few hundred years) a man was born with the L193 SNP mutation.  His descendants appear to be of uniformly Scottish origin, so perhaps (more about this later) he was born in Scotland.   At some point however before or around 1000AD, one of his descendants was born with the A3 SNP mutation.  HIS descendants then split into two lines – one became the Vans/Vance line which includes today’s Vans of Barnbarroch families, and the others split into two lines themselves, one of which gained family names of Clendaniel, Glendinning, McVittie (and others), and the other which became family lines of Kennedy, Little, Taylor, and Beatty.  

Working backwards, we know that some of the Vances in Group 1 can trace their ancestry back to the 1700s, so clearly the A3 SNP line was part of the Vans surname for several hundred years.  And in fact, the split into Vance Group 1a and 1b is also very old (probably back to the 1300-1400s), so we can be pretty sure that A3 was the DNA of the male line of the Vans family of Barnbarroch back to around the time that Barnbarroch was founded.  Other scenarios are possible in theory, but they’re just too much of a stretch.  

 One conclusion (that we already pretty much knew) is that any male Vances whose DNA testing show they are part of Group 1 are directly related to the Vans family of Barnbarroch.  We don’t know yet how Group 1b broke off from the Barnbarroch line, but they are all related to a man who was either a Vans of Dirleton or of Barnbarroch and who broke off of the main Barnbarroch line very early on.  

But the Vans line of Barnbarroch was supposed to be founded by the Vans of Dirleton, who themselves were a Norman family who reached Scotland sometime around 1100-1200.  If the L193 and A3 lines look like they are of old Scottish origin, does this mean that the ancestry of the Vans of Barnbarroch is NOT Norman?  

Possibly, but not necessarily.  Of course, it IS possible that the Vans of Dirleton or Barnbarroch adopted a son from an ancient Scottish line who brought the A3 SNP into the family DNA.  That was not uncommon in medieval times and might not have been recorded.  But movement between the British Isles and the European continent was VERY common for thousands of years before and during this time.  L513 descendants, for instance (but not yet L193 descendants) have been found in Scandinavia, Germany, Belgium, and other parts of Europe besides England, Scotland, and Ireland.  It is not inconceivable that a L193 descendant might have emigrated to Scandinavia or Europe and his line some few hundred years later came back to Scotland among the Norman settlers.  An interesting event if it occurred, but certainly within possibility.  

What would help?  Well it would certainly help to locate and test a known male descendant of the Vans of Dirleton.  That would tell us whether the Barnbarroch and Dirleton lines were in fact related.  And certainly testing a known male descendant of the de Vaux of Normandy would be a coup also.  

Without having those to tell us how the Vans/Vance lines evolved, our best chance at learning more about these lines is just for more men to continue to have their Y-DNA tested and having more L193 descendants identified.   For instance, finding European descendants of the A3 SNP would help us understand more about the spread of this subgroup that includes the Vances of Group 1. 

Friday, January 30, 2015

DNA Series: Update on Vance Groups 1 and 2, Part 1

This is the first in a three-part series on recent DNA analysis of Vance Groups 1 and 2.  While this series will be interesting primarily for Vances who descend from those Groups, I hope it will also show the current state of genetic genealogy and what you can learn by having a male in your family take a Y-DNA test.   This update owes a lot to Adam Bradford's original analyses of these Groups which can be found on the Vance Y-DNA Project's website, and it is a tribute to his original work that the current analysis agrees with and simply builds on it.  

The charts shown here are developed and maintained by the volunteer administrators of the R1b-L21 and R1b-L513 projects and I am including them here for information.  Please respect their hard work, do not use these for commercial purposes, and give them credit for these charts.


I'll confess to being a genetic genealogy junkie.  It's not likely that paper records will get me any farther than the 1700s in Ireland on my Vance line, so I've latched onto DNA testing as the most likely way to get more information about my Vance history.  And while our ancestors unfortunately didn't write their names in our DNA, they did leave us many clues that we're only just beginning to understand.

My own DNA is in Group 2 of the Vance/Vans/Wentz Y-DNA Project so that's the DNA research that I follow most closely.  But Group 1 and Group 2 are related within the last 4000 years (give or take) so I'm close to Group 1 as well.   So this series is an update on the DNA research into both Groups 1 and 2.  In this first article, we'll review the current state of the overall DNA analysis that includes Groups 1 and 2.  I'll concentrate on each of those Groups in the rest of the series.

When I talk about DNA and genetic genealogy here I'm focusing ONLY on Y-DNA testing, which is especially relevant to the Vance surname because only men have and pass on a Y chromosome so a Y-DNA test traces back through your direct male line (your father's father's father's father etc) which includes the first male in that genetic ancestry who adopted a surname.  Other very important DNA tests (mitochondrial and autosomal tests) can help you trace your other ancestral lines but I won't be covering those here.

When I first took a DNA test nearly 10 years ago it gave you more anthropology than genealogy.  I found out I descended from Cro-Magnon men who came into Western Europe some 30,000 years ago; which left me a gap of a few years from there to my Irish Vance ancestor in the 1750s.   In the years since then genetic genealogy has been working forwards from those Cro-Magnons to help fill that gap.

2014 was a banner year for genetic genealogy with major advances both in affordable tests and in the expansion of the family trees of our ancient ancestors.  So let's close the gap a bit and jump from the Cro-Magnons to Vance Groups 1 and 2, pausing first on a man living about 4000 years ago on the European continent in a Bell Beaker culture whose descendants make up what is now known as group (haplogroup) R1b-L21.  Most of his descendants became associated with Celtic cultures and while they originally populated Western Europe and the British Isles in great numbers, the group is now most concentrated in the British Isles and Brittany and Normandy in France.  There is a map showing the current distributions of R1b-L21 here.

Roberta Estes, a noted blogger in the genetic genealogy community, showed the advances in 2014 in group R1b-L21 on her blog in this post which is a great progress summary for the year for anyone interested.  But repeating her point about the progress in L21 last year, this is the descendant tree for R1b-L21 at the start of 2014:

R1b-L21 Descendant Tree as of January 2014 (credit:  R1b-L21 Y-DNA Project)


And here it is in January 2015.  This tree now connects over 13,000 men living today to their common ancestor about 4000 years ago.  Note the sub-tree in the pink box which is known as R1b-L513, where Vance Groups 1 and 2 sit.

R1b-L21 Descendant Tree as of January 2015 (credit:  R1b-L21 Y-DNA Project)


Narrowing things down further, we get into territory that is under intense study and debate.  Around 4000 years ago (so about 2000 BC), the common ancestor of the L513 sub-group arose.  It seems most likely that this man was a Celt living on the European continent, although some argue he already lived in the British Isles.   In any case his descendants are now predominantly of Scottish and Irish origins, as shown in this map of the most distant known ancestral origins of the L513 group.

Locations of most distant known ancestors for members of R1b-L513 (credit:  Family Tree DNA)


And this is the family tree of that man from 4000 years ago down to present day covering about 1800 of his male descendants.  This is the same sub-tree as in the pink box above, just expanded to show more detail and surnames.

R1b-L513 Descendant Tree as of January 2015 (credit:  R1b-L513 Y-DNA Project)


You'll need to click on that picture to read it, so let's zoom in on the left hand side and see where Vance Groups 1 and 2 sit.    We'll add a few markers and a very rough timeline:

Excerpt from R1b-L513 Descendant Tree as of January 2015 (credit:  R1b-L513 Y-DNA Project)


What does this mean?  Every subgroup has a label (which for those who follow genetic genealogy refers to a SNP that everyone in that group is positive for).

Vance Group 2, which is now defined by SNP Z23519,  broke off of L513 pretty early on, like about 3500 years ago.  To date, that group's descendants have ONLY been found with origins in Ireland and apart from one man of the surname Whalen, are exclusively of the surname Vance.   So far we know that this Vance line was in Ireland by around 1600 at least.  But while there are some clues, we don't yet know for sure where it was before that, or when it arrived in the British Isles.

Vance Group 1, on the other hand, is part of a much larger group of current descendants which includes a whole variety of surnames, some of which you can see on this last chart.  About 1000 years ago under the SNP A3 the Vans/Vance line split off from the rest and so far all the men on that branch carry a variant of the same surname.   This whole line, and in fact most of its parent L193, shows a very strong connection with Scotland and particularly with southwest Scotland near Ayrshire and Galloway, but its origins are still under fierce debate.  Some say it is of Pictish origin, and others think it could have arrived in Britain as late as the Norman Conquest.

That's the older story so far, and how the members of Vance Groups 1 and 2 relate to the rest of their wider groups.  I know for most Irish Vances, we want to know "so what does that all mean to the origins of these Vances and where our ancestors lived and who they were?".  We don't have a complete answer to those questions yet but we have more clues.  We'll explore the evolving story of Group 1 in the next article, and Group 2 after that.